Drones applying more dps at range more then light missiles can do. And they are imunne to all E-war. There is only few ships in EVE that can run from warriors damage.

Its really fun to see people who don't solo or who don't pvp at all complaining about a ship being OP that isn't even on test server yet.

From what I see its like the a faction interceptor, not that op, but we will see once it finally makes it onto the test server.

As a historic champion of all thing Caldari and related to missiles I must say I am excited. That being said I have a suggested change to the line up. I think what is missing is not a change to improve kiting (speed) as that leads us down the OP road. What is needed is improved application. That said here is what I offer:



=======================================================================================

GARMUR

Caldari Frigate Bonus per level:
25% bonus to missile explosion radius

Gallente Frigate Bonus per level:
25% bonus to missile explosion velocity

Role Bonus:
200% bonus to missile velocity
50% penalty to missile flight time

Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 3 launchers
Fittings: 38 PWG, 178 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 680 / 590 / 560
Capacitor (amount / cap/sec) : 400 / 2.05
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 415 / 3.2 / 987000 / 4.38s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 28km / 650 / 5
Sensor strength: 13
Signature radius: 32

=======================================================================================

ORTHRUS

Caldari Cruiser Bonus per level:
25% bonus to missile explosion radius

Gallente Cruiser Bonus per level:
25% bonus to missile explosion velocity

Role Bonus:
200% bonus to missile velocity
50% penalty to missile flight time

Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 4L; 0 turrets, 5 launchers
Fittings: 900 PWG, 460 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2950 / 2280 / 2100
Capacitor (amount / cap/sec) : 1550 / 3.16
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 245 / .48 / 9362000 / 6.23s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km / 300 / 7
Sensor strength: 21
Signature radius: 120

=======================================================================================

BARGHEST

Caldari Battleship Bonus per level:
25% bonus to missile explosion radius

Gallente Battleship Bonus per level:
25% bonus to missile explosion velocity

Role Bonus:
200% bonus to missile velocity
50% penalty to missile flight time

Slot layout: 8H, 6M, 6L; 0 turrets, 7 launchers
Fittings: 11600 PWG, 730 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 11200 / 8750 / 8100
Capacitor (amount / cap/sec) : 6100 / 5.28
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 148 / .098 / 98467000 / 13.38s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 76km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 29
Signature radius: 370

=======================================================================================

Think about it please.

Make these ships excel at delivering non-bonus missile damage with superior bonus application. Niched? Yes!
Welcomed? Hell Yes!

If any of these bonuses are OP feel free to adjust them but reliance on rigs is hereby gone and it allows you to curb it once you introduce modules that improve missile damage application.

With LG snakes, a billion in booster (not to mention the second toon) etc etc.

Looks like the nerf T3 argument, blow two bil on ships boosters and implants .....for a cruiser.....and whine about it being broken.

So you are saying that you can't accomplish something similar with HACs or T3s in the same price range, speically when you are willing to dump 2 billion into things that aren't the hull?

eh. it's like asking what ship can kill an aligned ABC, there's no way to actually do it. even when you're fitted for catching kitescum, you're still slower, and they can always just play defensively enough to escape, at the cost of getting kills sometimes. except when they have a 50% scram range bonus, I guess they can just do whatever and escape everything and be immune to tackle without effort.

OO i see.. you prefer to live in low sec.. the place I lived for so long and left because it is utterly pointless and boring, with less PVP than high sec and less rewards than 0.0.. Really impressive place to live.... so much that ccp is trying desperately to amke it relevant.

How is that a 1v1?

You know the differece between CAN and ALWAYS will? The question was what ship CAN kill it.


we will gladly prove you wrong as well, be sure of that. Another great candidate will be the new phantasm.


And why should I care if you do not like the type of PVP I do? incredible the level of arrogance of someone that think he is entitled to decide what type of activity someone can or cannot like. I prefer our high sec combat to anything I have seen in other places of eve, within the limitations of time frame I have to play. The fact of whatever you do in low sec, of 0.0 or wormhole space is completely irrelevant to me! Your activities are as impressive to me as the winner of a "eat 100 hotdogs in 10 minutes tournament"

I am happy with that.. and whatever you think or whatever any other person think, has absolutely zero relevance to how I will feel. I just pity you that you cannot understand such a simple concept.

Lets see, what can kill this ship 1v1, something with more tank/dps and speed could, so a scram vaga will eat it alive, a 100mn tengu would as well, same with a linked crow. And well if only there was a ship with extremely high ab speed that shoots em and had a tracking bonus, and yes a 100mn phantasm will easily catch it - not that you need one, a linked succubus will probably be faster with a 1mn ab, not to mention a 10mn fit.

Its a cynabal with missiles, lots of stuff can kill it.

Doesnt mean it isnt going to be op, buts its not that op that it cant be beaten in a 1v1.

Also i agree on the hahahaha highsec statement.

They can, and the phantasm can catch it, if it makes a turn you adapt, once you are so close that a 90-¦ turn will completly **** you over you are in scram range. Rest is faster then it, yes bar the crow it can always warp away but thats something all kiters have in common.

i understand why they didn't nerf the serpentis line web to 7.5% .... but that being said 90% is still OP .. so the other solution which i think is better is too nerf web strength of the modules themselves...

If the crutch of your argument is that the Barghest is fine with all sorts of gang links and external EW, then you can stop right there because the same could be said of any ship. We're obviously looking at the ship on its own, whether in a PvE or PvP environment. This should have been fairly obvious at this stage of the discussion... And missiles don't have 'tracking enhancers'.

The issue is, you don't need those on other ships.. and for sure don't need them on Pirate ships. Even without the webs, my Vindi can Full/Almost full damage to a BS, without any tracking mod's.. This can't.. CNR and Typhoon can, as they have the bonus.

And needing drugs? Really? If you need to carry around drugs to make your ship able to do it's job, it's time to take a look at the ship.

It is best to ignore that guy. He has no clue about how to use ships in pvp, and blocks everyone that tries to talk some sense into the moronic ideas he constantly spews.

I think you've misunderstood. No one's saying that large missiles should apply 100% damage to cruisers or that large missiles should apply 100% damage with target painters and webs. What we are saying is that despite a higher overall DPS with the Barghest, the Raven Navy Issue can actually apply more damage (both with torpedos and cruise missiles).

Actually, if you read my comparison, I said a Vindi WITHOUT Webs applies DPS better.

And no, my Argument is that I should be able to do damage to BATTLESHIPS without multiple webs, TP's, and all my Rigs dedicated to the task with, which you do require with Torps.

Also, your bonused point doesn't go out 200km either. But if you want to ignore a whole weapon system, then show me the other Pirate hull that only works with one half of it's grade of weapons.. Vindi is epic with Blasters, and still amazing with Rails. NM has insane damage application with Tach's, and that only goes up with Pulses. Arty and AC machs are both very common...

You can pull whatever graphs you want too, I've been testing it on Sisi.. Not that you need a lot of testing to know that Torp boats without a build in bonus to application, or all their rigs and 2 mids suck at applying DPS to anything smaller than a cap.

Assuming I haven't borked the formulas, Barghest/CNR/Typhoon spreadsheet with various rig, TP, web setups against a nanomach.

Someone needs to explain to me why torps are used in PvP over cruise missiles.

Also, can the Barghest drop the warp disrupter/scram bonus for a web range bonus? Or a TP bonus?

Yeah because pirate faction ships are used in pvp that often. Oh and my killboard doesnt scream high sec mission runner either Considering I usually reside in null with large alliances....Its a BS. any type of tackle with scram and web will take an already slower BS and make it go snail speed.
That is the whole purpose of tackle. Speed and agility are null and void unless you are solo or fly against morons.

So Tank and Damage are king. I expected you to have known that as a pvper, but seems most of the other people care about the 2 major points of the ship..You are magically fascinated but speed and agility and can care less that its dps is that of a garbage T1 BS. A standard raven would be a better choice to fly over this, you will also save yourself almost a bill in isk after the loss.

i'm quite fond of them actually.

the notion of sig tanking in a ship this size is hilarious, im all for it, great ship.

Why is Orthus going around 1900 m/s on 10mn MWD on test server? Is't it a little to fast for a cruiser?

It's tank is kinda lame, but still it will be hard to catch the bastar*.

Again... Seeing only complaint about Barghest. Ran a lot of desings on the 3.

With Mordu's getting the Point range bonus along with being "Missile Specialists", they seemed destined as kiting ships.

Garmur- a pain to fit, went with light missiles for Kiting... Terrible damage output, but fast... Faction interceptor w/o interceptor benefits... Meh, will pass on this ship.

Orthrus - best of the 3. Good speed, DPS... It's not a Tengu, but after the initial Hype costs go down... Should be much cheaper than one.

Barghest - did many versions of this ship except Cruise missiles... I never use them. Shield tanking seems to yield crappy fits, but Armor tanking with Torps a Heavy Neut, MWD, Disruptor, at least 1 TP and various ewar to your liking and heavy Cap Booster went as my favorite version of this ship. MWD still kept me ahead of most other BS and DPS was decently applied. The Armor amount from just 1 1600 plate was shocking and may be a glitch as it showed me 34k raw Armor HP yielding 114k EHP! I'm not saying I'll run out and get this thing... But, if the increased the missile Damage Bonus up more... It would be worth thinking about for certain senarios.

Overall Mordu's ships look cool, but at this point, for me... Only act as basic T1 ships and not the Kick-@$$ heights of other Pirate Factions. Costs won't be worth the Hulls as the sit now.

My .02 isk.

Oh gosh you guys.

We are going to TQ with things set like this. I can see your posts that DPS for the Barghest is a concern but we are pretty sure that because of the other advantages it offers (which are numerous) that it will do quite well. We'll watch what happens after release and make changes if needed.

For those of you still here on page 70 feeling frustrated with the amount of interaction from us, I would say a few things:

• My(our) interaction will always slow down over the life of a feedback thread. This is partly because we have to shift focus to other work and partly because most good arguments for changes appear in early stages of the thread (for example in this thread, Barghest DPS was raised as a concern throughout and we discussed that feedback and decided not to make a change very early on). Once an idea has been acknowledged and acted on (or not acted on) we are very unlikely to continue posting about it.
• Just because we aren't responding does not mean we aren't reading. The CSM raised the idea of officially closing off feedback threads when we move to later stages but we really don't want to do back because it can be the case that new information comes up or new ideas are raised later on and we would hate to miss the opportunity to see those things. So while the frequency that we are able to check and respond may go down, the value of having a feedback thread does not.
• Finally, while I really like talking with you guys and want you to understand our decisions and designs as much as possible, the primary purpose of feedback threads is for us to gather information. As much as I wish I could spend time talking through every issue you raise, sometimes just knowing you have that issue is enough and we take that information and make the best we can of it, which may not include a post to you.

We find these thread invaluable and I hope that even when you see our posting slowing down you won't stop giving feedback or feel frustrated by these threads generally.

Thanks for reading and for posting <3

Your actions demonstrate otherwise. If you want to regain some credibility with the player base, you're going to have to do better. I don't think asking for a short update every week or so is an unrealistic expectation. If the initial changes were always intended for TQ, that takes all of one line to indicate. And roughly 95% of the posts in this thread concern the Barghest - so I don't think it was asking for too much to at least address the handful of concerns raised with respect to the bonuses and CPU.

You don't have to comment or engage us in open debate on every issue (nor do we expect you to), but to basically leave this thread abandoned for over 2 weeks is inexcusable - especially considering this is a fairly important addition to Kronos (well, at least for some of us).

The EVE player base is your single largest (free) resource, and if you continue to neglect it you're going to find out firsthand how it feels operating in a vacuum (EVE pun, couldn't resist). This is intended as constructive criticism, and I hope you embrace it as such.

You don't need to apply full damage. The same way a ship with AC will almost NEVER apply full damage. The same way a ship with pulse lasers will also not apply full damage to anything manually controlling transversal.

Then you will say.. just web him!! And I shall answer.. and how that is different from the TP you need for the missiles?


The missile damage application issue is a MYTH! Missiles just have a different curve of damage application. While Turrets have a more logarithmic curve, missiles have an exponential curve. Depending on what part of the domain axis you are one is better than the other.

Yes

They are awesome until a coercer locks you for 5-6 seconds. By then, only a sour feeling and an expensive loss remain.
The same will happen against a Wolf, a Retribution, a Daredevil and a Corax even. You can't stay on grid against other LML boats, cause everything short of a breacher or a condor has better dps/tank. The breacher even will tank a garmur from dt to dt.

But ye, scramrange is totally OP when most things sit in your gearbox before you even got a lock on them (as all those above make between 4.5 and 6km/s heated or more, and no one will be dumb enough to warp into you once you're set up).

Edit: I lied, retribution only 3.6km/s and wolf only 4km/s.

What are these ships good for? They seem rather weak.

Oh and barghest so ugly way too flat.